Cross-Cultural Competency in the Diverse SAFe Workplace



A series of webinars that we’ve been having over several years now on leadership and digital transformation technology workspace. And so yeah, thanks for joining. And we have an a distinguished panel here, experts in their field, and I’m sure you’re going to have a great discussion, you’re gonna have a great time listening to all the expert advice and things of that you know, that our panelists panelists have to share. This webinar is brought to you by the eye for group and IFC supply. So without further ado, we’re going to introduce our panel here. And like I said, our panel is coming from a diverse background. So definitely do feel privileged to have a good well rounded, well rounded information on these topics that we’re going to share from various different perspective. So I’ll start out now give awesome Shabbat the floor to introduce himself and give a little background on himself. Awesome.



Thank you. So thank you, everyone, for attending. My name is awesome. I work in the space of transformation with agility, design thinking, and working in collaboration with other teams where you have to benchmark to establish innovation, where diversity is an asset that helps us break through what we would call groupthink and silo thinking, and I’m happy to be with such a distinguished panel, been in the field for 15 or 20 years now, from either organizational transformation with a background and OD organizational design and consultant. So



thanks. All right. Thank you. Awesome. Tasha Kolbert you want to go next?



Hi, sure. Well, good evening, everyone. I am so excited to be here this evening to share this moment in time with each of you all our participants, as well as the distinguished panel here today. And I thank you know, trolls and team for inviting me to join us panel discussion. My name is Tasha Coburn, who recently got married. So you all may see us is Tasha Parker. And I am the founder and the innovator of innovative financial planning, which is my own consulting company where I provide business solution and consultancy for small businesses, emerging businesses, and I also focus on financial coaching. Today, I will lend a great deal more of my expertise, really about my tenure in the financial services industry, which has been, you know, over two decades. And with Fortune 500, as well as fortune 200 companies, and the various things that I’ve either contributed or observed as far as digital transformation, or just organization and change over the years, we have played a role primarily in areas of either finance, or enterprise operational excellence.



All right, thanks, Tasha. Saying the one you want to go next.



Oh, absolutely. Hi, everyone. And firstly, thanks, I Fuji for putting together and thanks for the invitation, Charles. I’m James hwam. I’m a director in Cognizant consulting company, majorly in technology, space. Mike era, competency majorly is really around, you know, scaling, agile digital transformation. Been in this space for a while I’ve lost count now probably 10 years now. Like to say that agility kind of runs through my blood. And I enjoy. And one of the things I’ve seen just sort of as a prelude to this is, the more successful teams I’ve worked with at the more the most diverse teams. So I’m interested to hear everybody’s experience and point of views around this topic and share mine as well.



Alright, thanks. Sorry, Alistair. I’m gonna go next, sir.



Absolutely, absolutely. Charles and I just want to thank Charles and organization for having me today with this esteemed panel. My name is Alistair Marie Sr. I am a technology director at being why Mellon I currently manage to huge government portfolio and recently took on additional responsibilities as cloud strategies for issues services business, which income pass, corporate trust and all Depository Receipts business. Nothing about me I am a military proud military veteran, United States Army Thank you for having me.



All right, thanks. I’ll start and brief overview of myself. I’m Charles Maddox. I’m the founder and principal of the i Four group consulting company in the digital transformation space. We’ve been, you know, primarily working with a lot of companies implementing Scaled Agile Framework, and various other agile frameworks and helping them acquire business agility, and overall be agile, you know, from from a business perspective and technical. So we’re gonna jump right into it, and start our questions for the panel. And a lot of our questions here are resonating around, how can we become, you know, stronger companies? You know, there’s a, there’s a movement in the industry, right? diversity, diversity and inclusion, right? We call it DNI are many different terms for that, but you’re seeing it become a buzzword of recent because, you know, it’s pretty clear that a lot of organizations need to account for being diverse and having diversity built into their, in their DNA, more or less. And so there’s a lot of statistics, a lot of research being done up there that actually showed that diversity can actually improve your bottom line. So with that said, we got tossed that off, I’m going to kick us off with this answer, you know, some answers to this question here. How has diversity been an asset to your organization? Digital Transformation? Or have you seen it in organizations, digital transformation, that could be things from cultural change, decision making, supporting HBCU graduates, you know, in the light, so many different angles to that? I’ll start off first with touch and touch, what do you think about this particular question?



So you’re right, there’s a lot to unpack in the day, even the thoughts of DNI and the fact that we so often talk, as though it was such an intimate, singular kind of facet of just talking about diversity, where the inclusion part often gets overlooked. And so I would say that the importance here I was really talking about from a cultural standpoint, and and pivoting off what you said that there’s the current pulse on it right now is how is that scaling from a cultural standpoint, in the marketplace, as well as in each and every one of our homes. And so, when I think about that, I think about access, and when I think about the fact that I’ve been in the financial services industry, for over 25 years, one of the key things that I could say, and I’m sure some of my colleagues will give me the nod on this is just how the limitations on access and affording for individuals to feel like they are empowered, because there’s so many historical barriers, where we find that the companies have began to exercise a pulse on that, I would say, is largely not just thinking about the talent, that they are hiring, you know, by way of race, and, you know, gender and so forth, you know, it’s also about the type of talent used, it’ll be very silos, sometimes you will be in technology, and you will see a dedicated kind of, you know, group of people doing engineering work, you would see a dedicated group of individual kind of doing some sort of operational administrative. And what we’ve seen is that, you know, people have a much more deeper, rich kind of talent to bring to the table. And that really can help us think about where we go get the talent. So I’m an HBCU graduate. And one of the things that I used to push and push the conversation about is where we, where we build it, where we’re gathering our talent from, right and too often, the space would be left to what’s familiar to those who are coordinating, and actually going about to engage and establish, you know, the work front. And it was disappointing, because there was always a gap and what that look like. And so what I would say is that I’ve seen in, you know, the company that I last was that Fannie Mae really put a more conservative effort and thinking about and hearing from leaders who are at the more senior level, saying that we’re missing out on great talent, and that there needs to be a different thought process about how we go through engaging onboarding and being more inclusive. So I kind of say that, you know, I’ll leave it for, you know, ask them and if we can kind of dialogue but I’d love to hear even how he thinks about it and what his observations have been as well.



Thank you, Tasha, that was really powerful. Because one of the spaces when you’re dealing with technology and innovation, is it’s like the gene pool, diversity makes it stronger. The difference is, is that’s the mindsets to what it means to be diverse and inclusionary is what we struggle with, right? And what the expectation of stereotype role is, when you come into our space, you’ll be surprised how often we are overlooked. As leaders, people will walk past you and to to who they perceive to be the leader by either ethnicity, culture, skin color, etc. When in fact, we have to more normalized that leadership. And innovation mindset is throughout the organization, and it doesn’t have a tickler shade of skin color or gender, or ethnicity that we’re used to, that we have stereotyped in our minds. Not intentionally, but despite the way media has helped shaped us. And so what I’ve found is that even when we’re doing hiring, right, staffing up for transformation, sometimes they’ll want diversity. But the companies that they’ve hired to do the recruitment and the pooling, keep giving them the same mix. And Charles have been a part of that. Well, they literally have stepped in and asked us can you help us find a richer breadth of people who can identify and provide perspective. So we can get out of this silo thinking that we have this groupthink? Because we’re not breaking through the barriers dissin enrich thinking and mindset to even embrace change, diversity helps you embrace change, because it doesn’t have a normative view. It’s, it’s odd, I’m not sure. You know, we’ve all I say, been in a room, where we’re trying to make decisions about those who are not in the room, and happening to someone have to honestly say, I don’t know, because no one else is here to speak to it and realize we overlooked it, blind spots. And diversity helps you close out or expand those blind spots. So I find that the more normalized that we make the versity, that it becomes part of our DNA, right part of our RJ and this is how we function, I’m expecting to see a rich group of individuals who can contribute. And so I think that’s really important. And being able to go into the source and at the universities, at the schools at the pipeline, that talent cultivation pipeline, to help assist in developing those emergent leaders is a really critical part because that’s like our pipeline for development of a feature of a product, right? We can only go as far as that pipeline is cultivated. So I think that when we look at the asset is in that it is not just in the transformation, but it is in a vision for what the future looks like. And who was included in that future. And then having a lens to say, Who have we missed? Right? Who are we overlooked? And to go outside of our boundaries? So Tasha, what what are your thoughts on that?



Yeah, I love what you’re saying, you know, and about, you know, you know, this group thinking how versus a more broader kind of sharing of the space, especially because when we get into decision making, right, products that come to the marketplace, digital solutions, where we now we access a fair amount of our world via mobile, or navigating to some sort of cloud based solution really has to afford all of us to be able to feel like our needs to be a mad, it’s nothing more frustrating than when I would say, when I navigate on a particular product or something, and even the imagery doesn’t look anything like myself, it automatically causes me emotionally to feel like they lack empathy, and thinking about the customer base that they want to serve, versus maybe even who they’re serving. And so it really is beholden to the companies as well as the marketplace to think about the long term investments that they are making, as well as where they want to go. And because that short side of you is going to create a huge gap because you have these emerging businesses that are coming through the pipeline, and this next generation that’s coming, you know, behind us are telling us times have changed, and they’re going to do something different. And so we either need to heed that message and get on board and we need to be part of the broader solution. And and the the the change that you talked about, right?



Yes. And I agree with that because being part of the broader solution. You brought up something I think that when you’re not diverse enough, you can’t manage the difference between intention, creative tension, and conflict and you wind up avoiding those spots. That’s because you’re not sure how to deal with them, then really to bring about that we have to confront the tension in the room, but in a way that allows us to facilitate our growth, you know, those growing pains, and that diversity helps us with those soft skills, when you get used to the expectation that this is how a conversation is supposed to go, then you don’t really want to offend anyone, because you don’t you don’t know how to work with someone who looks different. Who has a different dialect, who has a different cultural background from you, you don’t know how to navigate that, because it’s not known to you. And thus, you can’t extrapolate those riches that they have those gems are how do you work with transformation? How do you handle stress? How do you handle conflict in? And how do you approach that is really, I think, one of the gems that’s hidden in diversity, because the soft skills of being what I would call a cultural navigator, I think when you have a higher level of diversity, you are we are, I would say, from where I stand my perspective, where are we learned how to navigate different cultures, and we have to observe how they interact, in order for us to work our way at the table. And what is a legitimate tension point versus what is the perception that I brought to the table? And so I think that’s really rich.



Yeah, and I’ll make this one last point, because I look, I think Charles wants us to move on. I have this quick experience. today. I was talking, I was interviewing financial funding companies to work with. And I got on the call a little later. And you know, apologize, what have you. And as the conversation began, remember, we in his digital bubble right now, even us during this conversation, so how we show up with each other is even more is really interesting, right? Because you can’t see everybody’s body language. So you have to manage based on what you hear. And some of that goes along with perception. And it was interesting that the conversation started from the gentleman when he spoke to me and said, You know, I don’t take it as you did to me. I wasn’t offended. But in the back of my mind, I said is this is how we started in the conversation. I thought it all too interesting that even today, on a day when I would think that we’re a couple of steps ahead of ourselves, and thinking about how we show up with clients, that we would be really very mature about how we have do have any engagement. So I share that with all of us that we still we’ve come. We’ve come a long way. But we still have a really long way to go. So



thank you, thank you this is this is a great starter to this to this, these sets of questions. We’re going to go over to the next question. And how has diversity helped your company or companies that you’ve worked with overcome obstacles in the digital transformation space? Before we jump into that, I want to give me a couple of statistics. Just coming right from McKinsey, you know, they’re got a big research department, they’re saying that the business case for diversity is even stronger than ever. They’re quoting many statistics about the delivery through diversity, having diverse people on your delivery team 21%. More, you know, more outperforming the the norm diversity by ethnicity 35% outperforming the norm. So the list goes on. So they’re making even a case within their their research departments at McKinsey that the business case for diversity, it just makes it just makes clear sense. So for the second question, let’s start with start with James. James has diversity helped the companies that you’ve worked with, and worked with overcome obstacles within this digital transformation space?



is right on cue as soon as you just called my name, my daughter just got back from school. That’s the beauty of working from home, say hi. You go outside, it’s in the meeting. Okay. No, it’s interesting to you. It’s interesting that you read out those stats, because I think that the beauty of this conversation is also telling your personal story, and that’s why I actually like this question a lot, right. So a bit of a personality putting a face to this conversation. I have had roles in the past and actually my current role where I am the first person of color to, you know, assume that role. Right? And I do believe that the company’s overall business strategic intention, especially as regards to you know, diversity The end any inclusion was part of, you know, not the fact that I wasn’t competent enough to do the job, of course, the results speak for themselves. But the fact that, hey, we need a new lens, or I remember one of my bosses that said, you know, I know your accent is different. And I liked that, because I think that that’s, that’s the beauty of, you know, you know, in imbibing culture and helping people understand where you come from, I have had the privilege of not just leaving on three different continents, but also working on three different continents. So when it comes to understanding people and culture and the nuanced way, Tasha, were just talking about in the digital bubble, you know, you say something, or you have a body language. And he can, he can say, 1000 words, right. But with a number of companies that I have been personally worked with in the past, diversity and inclusion, being a strategic part of how they hire, being a big part of their overall business objectives, helps them be successful. And so if I, if I even bring that down, and a little bit too, you know, we’re talking safe scaling, agile and working on agile teams, I have seen it, like I said, in my intro introduction, I have seen over and over again, and these studies by McKinsey and circle works, I have a number of those have only just validated the business case that the more diverse people you have on your team, the more you know, diversity of thoughts, the better innovative that they are, in getting that work done. So I want to you know, name, you know, companies here, but you know, I’ve seen companies from CPG, to technology companies that have really, really, you know, been successful in digital transformation efforts, just just by paying strategic attention to the to the idea of diversity. And I know, we use a different, you know, school of thoughts around is diversity and inclusion or diversity, equity and inclusion. But, you know, the, the sense of what diversity means, you know, goes beyond just race, it’s, it’s also gender, right? Because that’s, that’s important to a lot of companies, without a doubt are to this era is still emerging. There. Not a lot of if you want to call it institutional metrics, and that are in place today. But I think that gradually, companies are moving in that direction, because, you know, to the heart of the question, the results show that the more diverse teams organizations have, the more successful they are in innovating and in the digital transformation space. I want to take the whole time and I know there’s someone else’s will say answers. Yes.



Go ahead. No, great, very responsive to James. So yeah, awesome. You You also had something, I believe, to talk to say on this question as well.



Yeah, I think you and James also some good points, I think it kind of lends to something Tasha said and you hit on as well about internalizing what diversity means is different from checking a box for what we want it to look like. And a part of that I think the richness of overcoming obstacles and making a more resilient team and for transformation and be successful. It is an in and of itself, a transformational digital transformation is a culture shift. It is a mindset shift. And the more adaptable the individuals are within that environment within that, within that mindset, right culture, that the more fluid they are to embrace the transformation to handle ambiguity, right? willingness to learn other ways in ways of working and interacting and connecting with one another, learning how to resolve conflicts and different methods and approaches to the work and versus thinking that I know the right way this is the way in any other way does not apply. And that’s what happens when you’re when you lack diversity because very rigid. It becomes almost adversarial to new learnings. It almost becomes anything that challenges my perceived the unknown even to me, I may have inadvertently internalized that I’m the expert here, and thus anyone else is a threat to that. And so we He will often at counterintuitive to what a transformation requires where it requires adaptability, where it requires reaching out for perspective and go for hard command and control approach, which almost always fail with the transformation, because you need people who have empathy, who can ally who can adapt with the technology stack and fill the gap and avoid and take the initiative and a rich culture of diversity will afford you that along with the perspective to have a glimpse into what the future requires us to move towards. Versus this is the way we’ve always done it. And this is where we’re going to do it. And I’ve been here for 45 years. So that’s I’ll leave it on that note.



All right. Let’s, let’s move on to next question. And we could get some more input from some of the other panelists here. So as a leader, have you helped enable a focus on diversity and inclusion as a means for optimal transformation results? Before before we move into that, just another some statistics to note some some surveys that went out into into industry, again, it’s some some data from McKinsey, some of the biggest aspects of diversity that people are looking for, especially diverse workers. And those of that see a need for more diversity and inclusion, say belonging and openness about diversity is some of the biggest factors. And I think, Tessa and ask them you guys talked about that earlier, that just have an open dialogues, you know, we just want to have a sense that we we belong here, this is, you know, we feel comfortable. So just to give you some perspective on that those are some of those are the two biggest hitters on how surveys have actually, you know, people in industry was will have wanted to have more diversity and inclusion implemented in their space. So But that said, Allah structured over to you to give some touch on some aspects to this question. What are your thoughts on this?



Yes, sir. Before I jumped into my question, I must say that James salmon and Tasha absolutely dropped some Don’s in the first two questions. What I would say here is that, you know, was continuing to talk about D and I. And it’s not just a nice to have, it’s really a business imperative, right, the more inclusive your organization is, the more and I think James mentioned this earlier, the more innovative there will be, right, and it’s about the bottom line, your return on investment will absolutely increase in productivity will become better. As a leader, I am absolutely vested in making sure that our African American and Latina X, young men and women, you know, get that necessary exposure to what I call next generation technology, AI, ml rpa, data science. So they have that seat at the table. And not just having a seat at the table, but through every aspect of the lifecycle of that next generation technology. So it’s just really about, you know, the planning phase, the development phase, the QA, the testing, making sure that we have a seat at the table. As a professor at Long Island University, I am actively working with that university and other colleges, right to impact their curriculum, to make sure that we have black and brown folks in the classroom, learning and growing and understanding the importance of this. I’m also passionate about this topic of algorithmic bias. If we’re not there, and we’re not on the table. How are we going to be able to mitigate, we’re not going to eliminate it. But we have to at least be able to mitigate some of the algorithmic bias. And we know today, there is bias in all data. So what do we do when we talk about algorithms? It’s not just the coding. But even today, within systems, you have selfmade algorithms with specific proxies. And I’ll give you an example to that. There may be in the medical industry, we African American Latina x, we added disadvantage we had there’s a huge disparity in level of service that we receive and if algorithms are being written or being generated based on how much or how can you pay For your medical service, we are at the back of the line. So it is imperative I’m also working with head of digital within our organization to align ourselves with the right universities to align ourselves with organizations to give underrepresented minorities opportunities, reached out to a head of data, and asking the difficult questions. What are we as an organization doing to make sure that we mitigate algorithmic bias as we move on to the next generation technologies in ML AI RPA. Data science?



Alright, thanks for that outflows. Definitely heavy hitters. Huge job sometimes it’s up there, sir, on that one. Awesome. Do you want to think awesome, you’re also wanted to comment on this, this question here. You have some feedback.



You know, after after what Allison Charles and thank you, Alex, for what you just laid out, I think it’s really important to say that diversity is the counterweight to built in biases and stereotypes within the system. That is the only way that we can combat it. And that the data will only improve over time. Because things are most of our systems are aligned, and have been aligned for some time, to a perspective or limited perspective, that has allowed us to be able to shift and adapt. That sense of belonging and who belongs is very entrenched right now. And the more that we can anchor and see that we all belong, that we all have a place, the algorithms, even within our own thinking outside of machine learning will begin to expand to accommodate what is the natural order for what it means for us to actually be a resilient community to have a resilient workforce that is highly adaptable, and able to embrace change. So I think that as a leader, we have to continue to focus on not just diversity and inclusion, as you say, but even our own biases that we bring to the table and confront that directly. And though it may make us uncomfortable, and find ways to, you know, kind of tap into with our own peer group, sometimes on the Johari Window, our own blind spot where we have assumptions that we have built in algorithms in our own psyche of who should be at our table. You know, we do this and transformation when we build these guiding coalition’s, right, you know, and you look up and, and, you know, I’ve been on both sides, where it’s been all men, and one lady, and then it’s all women, and it’s one guy myself sometimes, and maybe the only person of color at the table, you know, so you find yourself on different sides of that continuum. And you realize, well, it this is something that we have to actively continually work outside of who we know, and continue to expand who we know, and then start to pull in and create those experiences. Like you said, that’s all I want to add, I give time back



to so you want to chime in on this one as well.



Yeah, this is such a rich conversation. And I love the build out of you know, AI fit, uh, you know, artificial intelligence. And when I think about it, I think, you know, largely about ageism, you know, and the fact that as the industry is continuing to evolve, like, I’m a data snob, I love data. And the reason why, because we could try to say a lot of things, but I always say date data tells the story, say that the same, you know, hear everyone else’s perspective. And we don’t know who gathered the information. It’s really about the methodology. That’s us, whether it’s, you know, using some, you know, you know, design thinking or agile approach, what have you, it’s data. But the thing that’s really important, and why bring up ageism is literally, that we have a training gap that we need to make sure is really considered as we kind of evolve, you know, as these executives are at the table, we have to remember, we need experience wisdom, as well as we need new thinking, right? To kind of help shape, you know, the the perspective of how we’re going to evolve, you know, everyone’s kind of voice at the table, because the value add, is not thinking about one person is about the, again, the customers, the clients that we’re going to serve. So you need to be able to do that and think about putting the user at the center by gathering data from such a variation of places. And the one thing that I’ll add to that, and while we’re gathering is that we always will need people see the thing with data But it’s only as good as the methods that use, but then someone has to interpret it. And so we’re fighting in what a workforce where we’re trying to time out people, we need to think about the importance of the rich investment that has been, you know, provided by many companies. And you don’t have to know everything. Sometimes leadership is just that leadership, and having folks to come in and be great contributors, top performers and come in and actually be thought leaders and doers, or what have you is just as valuable. And so I would add in this kind of, you know, and this whole ecosystem of workforce needed, you know, technology needed, all of those things have to work together, because I don’t know any robot that’s going to be able to kind of be even built, or created or technology without the human touch, and the empathy that comes from us being who we are, you can’t get that out of either metal or a coating.



And if I may jump in here, I just add to that. That’s wonderful. Tasha, I think as you were talking on data, and trying to define the usefulness of daytime, it was the words that came to mind if I borrow the words of Michael Bloomberg. I think God we trust everybody else bring data in. That’s just there’s the, you know, we live in an age where data is almost the currencies of new oil. But but, you know, just, you know, pulling on this tread for from this question a little bit, I, I think, you know, just again, I like to in these conversations, use my lens. And my current role, for example, and it’s one of the things I loved about joining cognizant, they, even in our performance and year performance, they expect to see that things related to the diversity and inclusion activities through the year that we have involved ourselves in, even as far as hiring, right? That when you’re conducting interviews, and you’re interviewing people or people know, coming to the firm for new role, that you’re paying attention intentionally for, for people with competency quite diverse, in in terms of the workforce. But the other thing is, it’s a great question, by extension, how are we as leaders doing our bit even in our community? Right? You know, the popular saying is a Charity begins at home, what are we doing in our community to help enable, you know, people who look like us who are diverse, who say, enable them build the capabilities that they need to thrive in today’s corporate world, right? And no, not withstanding the, the pushback that we’ll get just, you know, we were talking about biases, you know, sometimes these, these push back to the obstacles that we confront on a day to day basis and the work in the workplace is not is not sometimes intentional, right? It’s just like a cognitive bias people have and they make a decision rather than a different one. So how are we enabling to help them be more competent right in for me, my daughter is four a move from the CD to the burbs so you can you can imagine I’m in the more minority space so yes, it is. But but it is the fact that whether in her school or or among her friends that look like her or or other people of color, that where you know, my spouse and I intentionally having conversations and helping them like you know, get getting getting them ready to do things like you know, girls that cold and things and programs of that nature. Right and because I think that that’s that’s where we begin to build the foundation for what tomorrow would look like in the workplace as as these sort of corporate giants begin to set the foundation for for for keeping themselves accountable for for a dive more diverse workplace.



Great answers, you guys. That takes us right to the end of that time box for that particular question. So moving on to the to the next question here. We have other diversity leader. By the way, those know about user stories I wrote these these questions like user stories To deliver value hear



stories that’s good.



As a diverse leader, what were some of the challenges you have faced? And how and what did you do to overcome those challenges? So, on this question looks like we have some Tasha and Aleister and James, you could chime in as well. But just to give you a little background on this, you know, I’ve been working as a consultant now for almost 10 years. And, you know, it, I think, often you pointed out, you know, I think all you pointed this out is sometimes sometimes, like, you’re the only one, you’re the only one in the room, you’re the only you’re the only person of color that’s been selected to, to do to help out with this transformation. So, you know, how do you change the ballgame? How do you how do you change, you know, the dynamic there. And, you know, it’s often the challenge, and you know, you’re there to do a job, but you’re also there to, to try to improve the culture to and as a consultant, we’re trying to deliver value all the time. And so, if that’s one of the reasons why they selected us to do the job, you know, that’s what you’re gonna get, you’re gonna get some diversity, and you’re gonna get some, you know, some different perspective. And so you try to you try to, you know, own that, and, and, you know, from, from my perspective, that’s why we’d like to try to always make sure that we bring more diversity into the, into the space, if we’re bringing in coaches or other folks on the product side or technology side. It is, you know, it is a it is a, an initiative that we take on so. But yeah, I’d like to hear what the panelists have to say on how they back me up some of the things that they’ve had to overcome in their in their spaces. So Aleister, I’ll start with you, what are some of the challenges you had to overcome in this area? And what did you do in those cases?



Absolutely, Charles, and I’m gonna take it from two different approach, I’m going to take it from a career approach. And then I’m going to just touch a little bit on the personal approach, because these are challenges. Again, we are as a black man, it doesn’t matter where I go, right? My skin color does not change, the pigmentation of my skin does not change. Um, they don’t know that I’m a father, they don’t know that I’m a professor, they don’t know that I’m a technologist, they don’t know that I’m a brother, they don’t, they don’t know that I have master’s degree, and they don’t care. And they don’t see that all they see is the one thing that cannot change, right. And that’s the pigmentation of my skin. But I’ll talk from a career perspective. You know, many times in my career, you know, I was graded, extraordinary, but treated ordinary. Why? Right? Ask yourself, the question is why? So, and when I say treated ordinary, I’m getting extraordinary rating on paper. But my compensation did not match up. You know, what did I do? I made sure that I addressed it immediately with that hotline, with my manager at the time, my immediate manager, and just letting him know, you know, that I was not happy. Right, you cannot give me this extraordinary rating, and then give me all generic compensation. And if this were to happen again, in the future, my expectation is that you would take that compensation, and divide it for all of my reports. That was my request to him. All right. I was also, you know, rated, exceeds expectations for five years within an organization. Right, but never got promoted. Right, I’m continued to exceed at the role that I’m in but not being promoted. Right. I had to at some point, you know, epiphany, come to Jesus conversation, and really set the expectations right at the beginning of the sixth year, by really letting my manager know. Right, that obviously, you know, I’ve been told that I’ve been put up for promotion. I don’t know it. I’m not saying that you did or didn’t. But But here’s what will happen this year. And this is really again, we talk about diversity, but this is for anyone to really take your career in your hands and make some decisions and make some tough, courageous, have some tough, courageous conversations. And so here’s what will happen this year. No one knows Alistair and what else it does better than Alistair. So Alistair is going to write up his own promotion package. And Alistair is going to write up his talking points. And all you have to do is represent me at the table. be that advocate that you told me you are at the table? Right? So yeah, So it was a difficult conversation. But it was one that needed to be had at that time. And then a personal note, yeah. And James, you just spoke about living in the suburbs, I’ve been living in the server for the last 20 years. My boys grew up in the suburbs where 130 Something house, in my development, I was the only African American for probably 10 Out of those 20 years, and my kids went to school, where you don’t have to look very hard, just pick them out out of the class picture, right, because they’re the only one. And then I set them to private school, Catholic private school. And, again, they had a minority. And I have one son that has very curly here. And he was really being harassed by the principal of the school telling him



I don’t know, what’s that on your head, but you’ve got to do something about it. He has to be straight can’t be curly. So he’s, uh, what do you what do you mean? And this time that I have, obviously he will not back down? He will tell you, what do you mean by it, it has to because this is my hair. This is my natural hair. I don’t know what you’re talking about. And if you have a problem, called my dad will absolutely you don’t want to call dad. But it got to the point where my wife and I had to address it head on, went up to the school and met with the President and the principal. And really let him know, okay. Unacceptable. If you had an issue with him, she would have called us, right, didn’t call us. But after that conversation, the result of that conversation, my son became the advocate for African Americans and Latina acts in that high school. So it was lessons learned for him. And it was something that we had to tackle. And again, there are challenges in and out, right, just because of who you are. The context, you know, the, your hair style drives, you know, an uncomfortable conversation or unnecessary conversation. So, you know, very good question. But I’m wanting to take it from both aspect, the career aspect and the personal aspect.



Yeah. I’m still with you on that.



clapping at least, wonderful, wonderful.



Right, there was a lot of clapping moments there, definitely. So I would say, look, as a, you know, executive leaving the company, there’s a lot to have to shoulder, right, I will tell you, as a black woman, and I’m just five feet, wearing stilettos and always being very sensitive about how I’m showing up, you know, we have this many on a call, we’ll know, pi performance, image exposure. So my image became a really just very defined kind of, you know, a thought process, every single time that I woke up, you almost like, you know, you know, I’m very natural in my shoe and all of that. But I was like, wow, I have to think about that every single time. My performance is not enough. I am a top what we call nine box performer, literally year after year after year, as Aleister said, not making sure because average isn’t enough for us. So performance right up at the top and being able to say that image, oh my gosh, you gotta come and, you know, making sure like all we’re doing casual day, your casual day has to look still a bit spoofed up and everything, just so that there’s no misunderstanding about my curves, or my natural, you know, hear color or the earring so we don’t wind up with these unnecessary conversations. And so that way I can when we come to the table and have these very uncomfortable discussions about exposure and my time to, you know, further my career or get that next opportunity. All of the, you know, you know, backdrop noise chatter won’t be a point for you to try to pull out, right. You don’t want to be the angry black woman, right? That’s, you know, in quotes, right? Like, oh, how did you show up or you know, during the exchanges when we’re having conversations that I considered is a spirited discussions at the table because I’m good with being who I am and confidence that it’s not that I’m disagreeing because I don’t know how to, you know, use the King’s English or anything like that. I’m speaking from experience Is and discipline and competency. And so what I would say is it is a tall order to be a black executive in a company, and organizations like ITSMF are doing amazing ELC are really doing a great thing to try to give us not just the anchor, but the also support the top cover in the encouragement, what I would say and I recommend to our young professionals, as someone who is a, again, an HBCU graduate from Virginia State University, is that we have to go out in James talk about what do we do to the community? Well, we have a responsibility to mentor. So I will tell you, sometime it’s been on holidays, where you want to spend time with your family, but I’ve gotten in my car and and I’ve taken a ride and you know traveled with our HR recruiting team, right, because once you start the conversation, sometimes you have to be more than part of the solution. Right? You can’t just be at the table and talk about what needs to happen, you have to be about what’s going to happen. And so I find myself having to do the leg work. So to get the rhythm going, and also then be there for those associates, I have so many mentees phone number in my mobile phone, that I say to them, if there’s a situation and you need me, you tax me, you call me you have to make yourself available that’s called sponsoring, right, you show up in the room and you talk about them where even others might say they think differently, you say here, but let me share with you what my experience has been and how that goes. And you also help them through the difficult challenges. As a as again, Alice’s I want to piggyback off of the here thing, it’s not just in the school system. But I will tell you that this black queen, I have had to defend my natural here. And I’ve had to defend other professionals, young professionals and otherwise where people have a disproportional thought about what it means for us to show up in our authentic state and still feel relevant. So I would say we have a huge shoulder weight of responsibility. But I’d rather take that on than to be in that in the backdrop just looking at saying and talking about what I could have should have done.



All right. Excellent. Excellent comment on it. Just for the sake of time. I know. Awesome. You had a you had we got one more question after this. We’re going to start wrapping up, you’re asking that you want to give any feedback on that question. Before we move to the next one.



We can go ahead and move to the next one. I think there was enough that was covered. And we can pick it up at the end. Okay, have a deeper discussion. So appreciate that. Thank you. Good John Terry. Okay.



Excellent, excellent. Feedback, there talks about some definitely some, some good words of wisdom, especially on mentorship. And, you know, before we transition into this next question, the value of mentorship is is you know, it’s measurable. And it’s just something I know that that going back to the previous slide, about being a part of the solution. You know, that’s how that’s what leadership is, is that how do we bring up those that were once in a position that we were in looking for advice and wisdom? And mentorship is definitely moving that direction? James, I’ll give you a crack at this question. Here’s one of our books. It’s our last question here. As a digital transformation leader, what are some of the future challenges? To getting diverse talent into our organization? What are some of your recommendations that you think we could look to?



Yeah, I think that’s also a really good question. As we as we,



James, you’re just real quick, James, I think your audio went a little bit low. Something.



Can you guys hear me? Yeah. It was just this right. I just need to pull that down. I need something fancy as a ASMs. Just to have a studio. I know. Right? No, but I think it’s I was saying, I think it’s a great question and, you know, nicely timed as well. I know, you you were Charles so you will go in and you’ve been doing this lovely thing of just calling out data and stats. And I did also some research myself. And one that i i personally tied to because with this company, I worked with PwC they did a study and this is you know, this is not internal is the study that was published. They found that you know, that the partner level can remember the actual number now of course in the 1000s in North America, only about 2% of was was actually African American or black. And that was a that was a big first So the fact that they would conduct that kind of, you know, study was was great, right. But now we’ve identified where the problem is right? Or you’ve seen, you’ve seen the challenge now, how do you then begin to identify solutions, which I think is at the heart of this question, right, that can help you close that gap. Right? Recently, they announced they did any, they’ve come up with a new sort of organizational strategy and business strategy. They want to focus more on consulting, and build that capability is around that. But also, there’s a there’s a target of hiring, you know, about 100,000, you know, black people, it’s a lofty goal. The question is, how do you get the talent? How do you ensure one of the data points I’ve, you know, sort of been fascinated by by study by circle walks, they call the call the state of di report, just like the state of auto report. And one of the things they found in this study, for example, is that 41% of companies that indicate that they have some kind of DNI di initiative, are still sort of in the early stages of what whatever that that looks like, it’s not mature in any way. Right. And they’re struggling, they’re struggling to have an effective messaging system that can help them have a strategic plan, in this case of PwC having a goal of hiring 100,000 Black employees in five years what that looks like, right, that’s a really lofty goal. How do you begin to address that? Some of the other data points also is is the fact that there’s there’s a gap in pay. So when do you begin to identify some of those challenges? You know, I know, Alan Stern and Tasha talked about the pay gap. Right. Again, when we’re talking diversity, we’re not just talking, you know, erasable, we’re also talking gender. Right. That’s one thing that a lot of you know, you know, people have, you know, called out, a lot of companies are increasingly intentionally trying to make sure that they have an equitable system where, you know, they’re hiring more women to hire more people of color. But it’s also in things like, challenges that they need to overcome and in things like, you know, you know, di awareness trainings, right? How do they infuse that as part of your most of us do if you’re in consulting? Oh, especially in consulting, you will always have to do mandatory ethics training, at some point at least once a year, right? How do you begin to also include things like, awareness training, we’ve talked about the fact that a lot of these things sometimes is bias, people are not necessarily intentionally wanting to be bad or do bad or marginalize, but the bias that oh, yeah, I’m interviewing three people to a wide and and one is black, but he kind of looks like, you know, they all have the same competency. But yeah, why not just hire the black the white person, right, and putting people in executive positions that can ensure that these metrics are met. Right. So metrics, again, things like inclusion and awareness, training, performance management training, right. And like I said, In my current role, and in my current organization,



part of my, my, the metrics I will be assessed by the end of the year is, you know, what DNI initiatives and activities that I participate in? And what was the level of that what was the achievement based on what I planned and what I actually achieved, those are, you know, consensus, sort of, you know, solutions that companies can have in place, inclusive recruitment policies, right, have that as part of your HR policy, and let you not just be a word of mouth or a lip service, rather, sort of thing and to racism, it’s, it’s an important one. And what that looks like, right? How many people have that, you know, move away from their, you know, you know, subconscious bias and moving into a more conscious way of thinking about how they interact, the kinds of things they say, and Tasha gave me an example of somebody saying this in a meeting, just because he probably used that word just because you know, the felt okay, this is where the Have a stereotype, typical perception of where you come from based on things they have seen on TV, or, or, or even other media platforms, right. So it’s important. The one, one industry group that does well, especially in the anti racism pieces in a sporting area, especially global sports, where they’re, they’re constantly paying attention to to do things like anti racism. So I think that when, when organizations infuse this as part of making di DNI, a part of their strategic business objective, having a well defined system that helps address and capture metrics for how they improve in, in this area, those those are things that organizations at least can, can begin to do to get ahead and and and be, you know, sort of be on the good side of of history, if you want to put it that way.



All right. Well, thanks. Thanks. Excellent, excellent feedback on that question. I know, Alistair, you’re up next to give some feedback on this particular question as well. And if you don’t mind to it, Tasha, you met mentioned ITSMF. But it’s, you know, organization that we’re often that we’re familiar with, I know that’s gonna we are connected, but how could some of that how can organization like ITSMF also be a part of this company’s solution to try to tackle some of these talent gaps that they may try to be shoot for in the future, just wanted to get a plug in for them as well,



hey, great, great, great plug there for ITSMF it has been the missing link in my career and have definitely been given me some tools to put in my toolbox that have been essential in me being promoted, probably twice within the last year and a half or so. So ITSMF, you know, kudos to the training from, you know, I went to the management academy, and also the executive Academy with you and Tasha, Tasha and I, we follow each other I taught you when I went to management academy together. And Charles, we met you at the executive Academy. So definitely, I’ll touch on that. But what I’ll say is that my organization have been doing a phenomenal job with trying to remove the labels, right? When we talk about trying to hire the best and the brightest talent, trying to remove the labels and trying to remove biases, right, obviously, you know, sometimes they can look at a name and know that this person is African American, or this person, you know, is Spanish or so we have been working in and our team have been working very, very diligently to try to remove the bias in the hiring process as much as possible. Right. You know, I remember times when, prior to LinkedIn, my name being Alison Murray, you don’t expect a big black man with a bald head to show up, you would think that it’s maybe an Irish guy, or British guy that’s going to show up, and people have been excited over the phone, oh, my God, we love your credentials, we will love what you do. We can’t wait. And then I showed up, and the opportunity is no longer there. Right. So we have faced that, but I foresee the biggest challenge that we will, you know, within every industry is really about looking for know, the same diversity candidate with the same type of skill set. Right? We all are trying to find, you know, it’s not a needle in the haystack, because they’re out there. But we have to go and find them. Right. So how can we get, you know, our African American lieutenants, brothers and sisters, really to attack, you know, in the STEM field, you know, and get into ml, get into AI get into RPA get into data science. Right. So we have that pipeline coming along. Right. We also have to build, you know, stronger. And I think, you know, as Sam and James spoke about that we have to build stronger affiliation with universities and colleges, right, where we can impact the curriculum, and that there has to be a relationship with, you know, cooperations. So it’s not just on the individual but it’s about you know, universities and colleges and corporations and I think It’s important that you know if we want to continue to improve and to make sure that we have the right staff. And the third thing I’ve say about this is that, and someone mentioned this earlier, we have to meet this diverse candidates where they are, we can’t be searching for diverse candidates are all the right diverse candidates in all the wrong places. Right. And that may mean definitely that we have to go into some unconventional pipelines and unconventional routes to find these talents. It doesn’t always have to be Harvard, Yale and Princeton, it doesn’t always have to be to HBCU, which is great. But there are unconventional RAs and there are some strong organizations out there, like for soloists, right, like in power, right, who are getting talents who will come in from an unconventional background may not have, you know, a college degree, but they’re just as competent, and all they need is an opportunity. So I would say that, definitely, we have to go to an unconventional route not. And finally, I’ll say from an ITSMF perspective, ITSMF is probably one of the organizations that provides the C suite candidates for any organization in any industry ready from day one. Right to step in and accomplish the mission. When I went to, you know, the only regret that I have about ITSMF is that I did not know about it 15 years ago,



because I probably would would not be where I am today. Because the as I said, they were the missing components that I needed to take my career and my trajectory to the next level on sponsorship on coaching. And definitely, you know, presenting at an executive level ITSMF gave all of that to me. And I’m indebted to that organization, as long as I’m here.



Thanks, Alistair. Yeah, just one little touch point on that on, on reason why I mentioned ITSMF, too, because it kind of plugs in from various perspectives, like you said, that there’s there’s actually training that’s available, but it’s actually a kind of a support network to grow talent and attract talent, and the organizations that partner with such organizations like that, because, you know, I know that you guys, I know outside think you have dny, you guys actually partner have some type of partnership established with ITSMF as part of the mission. And you know, ITSMF also recommends mentoring and supports mentoring and as a mentorship network too. So that to your point about unconventional ways. It’s yeah, there’s things like that these these angles that need to partner with organizations, and, you know, these these organizations that are seeing the kind of what the future holds, and how you can actually, you know, find and maintain diverse talent and grow diverse talent for organizations in the future. So any last questions from the panelists? Before we turn our comments on this particular question? Before we open up for what was in the what came in in the chat?



A small comment, if I may, just to build on what you all have said, I think part of this is not just the pipeline, but the educational framework, about what does it mean, to what is a true digital economy, a lot of our future pipeline are being developed as consumers of tech, and not as the designers and architects of tech, and as the innovators of tech. And that mindset has to shift. Also, the second part of that, and just to touch on it lightly, is there’s no nice way to say this is greed and entitlement. And I think in fear of change is locking down that pipeline. Because there’s a sense that that was my role. That was That job was for me, if someone who doesn’t look like me, or come from the same, you know, socio economic background as I do, then I feel like there was an injustice done. And that, to me, is that sense of entitlement and greed, that is not common, that is not uncommon. It’s in all of us, you know, it’s like, you know, as a kid, if my brother got that last slice of pizza like that should have been mine. You know, it’s not it’s a part of our human nature that we have to continue to struggle with to keep pushing the boundaries of what it means to be open, and that there is enough and stop and try to manage the notion of scarcity. Like there’s only so many roles or position within the organization that I need to hold on to this tenure for life and I think the last one is I don’t need to be a director for 20 years in the same role. There’s just a certain point where my creativity had just stopped, you know, and cultivating the mindset that we continue to push our leaders and emerging leaders to take on more experiences to step outside of those core competencies that create spaces, you know, I shouldn’t be the first and only for 20 years, that to me, that mindset has to change. And that we continue to cultivate that. So I think that those are the challenges is more on mindset and structural. And some of that is indecision, human nature of who we feel, should have been included. And so I think, as we continue to push that envelope, and to have those backgrounds that that allow us to be unconventional, in our approach, there was a time when there was no college, right? You know, for people, we were just coding on our own and learning how to do it, you know, building servers, and just trying to figure it out breaking systems and, and get good at it and proficient. So, I think that we have to remember that there’s still Mavericks out there and innovators who are on those honored non traditional tasks, and they’re going to build something great. And we need to be ready for it. That’s it, sir.



All right. Very, very common thing. Awesome. Any other last comments? We got probably a couple a minute or two left. Before we got some questions coming in on the chat that we can address to start with the first one. Can you please share a moment is open for any any panelist that wants to take this one? Can you please share a moment when you know that leadership was really serious about addressing the FBI, and that it was not just the front, they were serious about this? Anybody want to take that?



So So I know that most organization have the right intention, right. So I know that being why Mellon, my organization definitely want to see sustainable change. And I will tell you how they’re doing that. I was placed on the front page of our global what we call my source, our global portal, with a 20 minute courageous conversation, really spelling out my experiences as being a black man in corporate America. Most organizations don’t have the gumption to do that, or will not do that. But being one Mellon is leading from the front, and given us that safe space to share our experiences. And that’s important, because at the end of the day, I’m not the one to solution, what people are what we may see as the problem. The solution is all of us together as an entity as an institution. And my job within that is to really educate people, because people don’t know what they don’t know. And sometimes you have to bring it to the forefront. And we may say that, hey, I’m with everything that’s been happening within society in the last year, year and a half, that human factor should kick in. And they should they know better, they should do better. Well, we have to help them sometimes. And it’s not about me trying to solve or be a solution to what we may see as a problem. But as an organization, we are committed and intentional about seeing true change.



Alright, thanks for that. Alistair. I think awesome. I seen you raise your hand and I want to have you on Yeah,



I’m asking made a good point. I’m just gonna keep it at a high level. During the transformation. There is there’s a mindset shift everywhere. And one of the companies that we supported in their transformation, kept getting the same players and I said you know that we’re missing the mark. And we believe it’s an our vendors and they came to us and said, you know, you guys are competent. Can you help us source out and push into spaces because our people are sourcing companies saying they can’t find anybody. And that was bizarre, but then leaders were willing to step out and say okay, and we were able to find people many candidates working in collaboration with our four Charles we were able To put a lot of candidates on the table, and they wind up hiring. And so I think as a part of that, we were also able to help cultivate and develop leaders within the organization are able to move from what would have been just the engineering or development role into leadership because of their perspective, and given a chance. So I think that when you see that, that they’re not waiting for a mandate, that you have an individual who is stepping up and putting substance. And then the last part is they’re not afraid to take off the band aid. What happens to a lot of DNI situations is that they tend to, they’re afraid of the conflict and making people uncomfortable. And so they tried to adhere to the status quo, and do a very incremental approach that winds up fizzling out, because it doesn’t get enough momentum and traction to tip the scales. And that’s what I said.



Before I’m gonna go quick little example, I was working with a client recently, and I got it, I think a lot of it comes with the kind of recent, you know, social justice movements, that people are getting more courageous, you know, they say, never talked about race, politics, or religion, and the workplace. But more now, so I seen it, you know, kind of firsthand, some leaders of some groups actually call out, you know, in the middle of, you know, 50, you know, got these huge zone meetings that, hey, you know, any, you know, we want to make sure that, you know, nobody feels uncomfortable, especially with a lot of stuff going on, you know, you know, people getting shot, if you got, you know, anybody wants to pick up on that, as you know, as a news guy, you’re speaking as a, as a white guy, I didn’t, you know, I got some friends that educated me on this, that I had no idea that, you know, I, you know, there’s things that I don’t, I didn’t really recognize, and that I’ve never seen that before, all of this stuff that happened in corporate, but you’re seeing more courage now. And, you know, they say we would struggle cause change. So, you know, these things that happen? You know, there’s some good that came out of that second question, what would be your suggestion to address a company that has seemingly watered down as dei strategy, to the extent that there’s just a lack of an apparent substantive strategic direction, as it relates to inclusion of more black and brown folks, particularly and senior leadership?



How would you suggest I definitely, you know, had the, you know, as a leader who is over driving operational rigor, and Chief of Staff, you generally have, you know, a hands on kind of dealing would employee engagement and culture, right to support your officer. And so, in supporting CIOs and other executives, the one thing that was very, is easily easy to tell, right, you can go on any one’s website, and you can see what the leadership team looks like, just real talk, right? That’s, that gives a level of transparency that often people don’t want to speak about, right. But I would say, one of the things that’s really important is to leverage employee surveys, when you feel like your voice is not being heard. There are resources and platforms that even the the, the the, the company, that’s more of a doing the talk, but not don’t, you know, walk in the walk, they don’t like to see the data. And I’ll go back to data that says that there otherwise of what their storyline is framed up to be. And so in that opportunity, people need to take a committed effort to tell their truth and share that through the way of those type of forms. And to be active in the company right? Use diplomacy but you still can be very true to what it is that you how you feel and what you see. And I’ve never seen anyone may look the reality is, if they were going to shame your message, then they were going to do that when you did something else. And it’s not the culture and a place you want to be and so you should make another decision or create your own opportunity. Like some of us have done with our own organizations. Right. And so we talked about being there tons of problems in the marketplace that we create solutions and people are doing that I saw a young lady just today before I got on the call. You know coloring pencils, right? They always blue green, what have you she created them have naturally created black and brown colors of hues in the pencils. So when the solution is not created for you what the environment is not for Are you go create your own space. And so I would say either we stand up in the space where we are. And we exercise our voice, and we stretch ourselves and when we stretch will be uncomfortable. But do it in a way that you feel like when you walk away, that you can face your own self in the mirror. So I would say, be authentic, use diplomacy, communicate and use the resources that’s available. And when that environment or that culture doesn’t work, and doesn’t seem like it’s going to change because every environment doesn’t think go create your own space.



Two mantastic that’s, that’s really important. Just to add to that, do not become angry and bitter, they will kill you on innovation and drive. And if you are not seeing the opportunities opened up for you. That’s one two, leaders do not have to wait from a mandate, they can act on their own. When it comes to procurement, it used to be well, we can’t find any vendors in the procurement processes this as a way you got $50,000 Before you even have to make a formal request, you can activate and start to target and start to create a pipeline. So there are there are ways where we just have to be creative about the solution, but become an angry, and then this complaining about it and becoming a critic will kill your capabilities to actually create the solution that may be the best for you, the environment is not made for you. If the people are not there welcoming you, sometimes we just have to step out. And you find that there’s a whole group of us here who are looking champion and supporting you. That’s all I got to say today. So good points.



I just want to jump in here. Because what I would say to any organization of such is to be real. And my real is about recognition. Recognize your black and brown leaders, your black and brown folks, your underrepresented minorities, make sure that it’s equitable, right across the board, equitable from a compensation perspective, right? And equal, right equality and equity, both. And then access, give them access, access to p&l, access to stretch assignments, give them the same access that has been given to everyone else. And we’re not asking for anything different. And if you do that, as an organization, you will create a legacy that’s sustainable for years to come.



Excellent, excellent endpoint, they’re out there. Well, one comment too on this last, this last question. And as we kind of touched on a little bit, too, because we see it in transformation, that some organizations just aren’t ready to change. You know, they’re not at that point yet. Or, you know, in a coaching, you know, when we coach and advise you meet the organization where they are, and they may be at a very immature stage. And you can recognize an organization that’s committed to this change. If, you know, we talked about using this, this change management framework, made popular by John Kotter, it says that you need to have a guiding coalition in place right off the bat, there needs to be an established leadership group is committed to making change happen. And if they’re not committed, you know, again, if you don’t have leadership direction, and guiding this, this effort, that is kind of a it’s kind of gonna go it’s gonna fizzle out. And leadership commitment, in this point means in touch on the Agile narrative of it, you’ve got a backlog, you got action items, here’s your strategy, you can clearly see these are our initiatives. This is how we’re measuring ourselves. And this guiding coalition is driving the backlog and to try to make this change happen. So to me, it’s that’s kind of one clear sign that your organization has clarity on that approach. All right. Any last questions or comments? From panelists where we’re at where we’re at are, we’re at the end of the session here. We get,



I would say that we all I love Maya Angelou. And one of the things that she one of her great quotes was an E is people don’t remember what you say. People don’t remember what you do, but they always remember how you make them feel. Feelings. We definitely want to feel like cept it we want to feel belonging with any organization that we’re a part of.



Alright, thanks for the outset. Last Words of advice, we’ll end it on that. And thank you for that join this this session. This is going to also be out on the YouTube website. So I for an ISP supplies that sponsor this event, be on the lookout for future webinars on this, these particular topics and series. And we’d love to hear your feedback on this. So please send us a message if you need any support any feedback for the event. And again, thank you guys for coming out. And everybody have a blessed night. Good night.



Thanks for having me.